Symbolism Questions

Hi! I was wondering if someone could help me with a few questions since I'm not having much luck googling it. ^_^ 1) There is a specific name for the carp that is half transformed into the dragon, does anyone know what it is? 2) I read that there is specific symbolism involved in the coloring/whisker size/scaling/etc of the koi that are supposed to denote specific aspects one wishes to attain. Does anyone know what a list of these things may be? 3) Does anyone know a good site of traditional japanese artwork; a site that includes traditional human form work and koi work? Anyone who can answer any of these questions for me would be greatly appreciated. ^_^ Thanks!

Ya know what, these are damned good questions, and I'd love to know the answers as well. This part goes a little deeper than I know. Anyone got the skinny on this?

I'm gettin' there..

1. kiao - this is the stage of the dragon where it's head has become that of a carp.. Some additional reference info.. Dragons are described as being made up from parts of nine other animals. These are believed to be: 1. The head of a camel. 2. The horns of a deer. 3. The eyes of a devil. 4. The neck of a snake. 5. The abdomen of a clam. 6. The scales of a carp. 7. The claws of an eagle. 8. The paws of a tiger. 9. The ears of an ox. (This is somewhat different from the 'kite parts' list on the introduction page - often dragon tradition contains contradictions and/or parallels, due to the time over which the traditions evolved. ) Types of dragons Legend tells of nine sons of the dragon who each have a strong personality. The names of the sons vary but these are the most widely used ones: #1 Pulao is fond of roaring. His image is on the top of bells and gongs. #2 Qiuniu likes music. His image is carved on the bridge of stringed instruments. #3 Bixi can support heavy weights. His image is carved on the bottom of stone monuments and on panniers. #4 Hanuxian. An adventurous dragon. His image is carved on the eaves of temples. #5 Baxia likes water. His image is carved on bridges and archways. #6 Yazi likes to fight. His image is carved on the hilts of swords and knives. #7 Jiaotu is tight lipped like a mussel. His image is carved on doors and gates. #8 Chiwen likes to gaze into the distance. His image is carved on pinnacles. #9 Suanmi likes smoke and fire. His image is carved on the legs of incense-burners. There is a lot of dispute as to the names of these dragons.. The Chinese believe that the dragon originated in China. When a dragon walks east it looses toes. The further east it goes the more toes it looses and eventually it can. t walk any more. Similarly, when it goes west it gains toes until it can. t walk further west either. This explains why Chinese dragons have 5 toes; Korean dragons have 4 toes and Japanese dragons 3 toes. It also explains why Chinese dragons never reached Europe! The Chinese believe that the dragon originated in China. When a dragon walks east it looses toes. The further east it goes the more toes it looses and eventually it can. t walk any more. Similarly, when it goes west it gains toes until it can. t walk further west either. This explains why Chinese dragons have 5 toes; Korean dragons have 4 toes and Japanese dragons 3 toes. It also explains why Chinese dragons never reached Europe! The fish and the pearl It is also thought that dragons originated in water. There is a legend that there was once a special fish who had a precious pearl in his throat. Other fish wanted to take away the pearl but he was always able to outwit them. One day a man in rags come to the water's edge and cried out to the Gods that it was unfair that he was poor and couldn't look after his family properly. The fish heard and felt sorry for the man and wanted to help him. He decided that he would give the pearl to the man. He hid his pearl in a shell then leapt out of the water so that the man would see him. When the man tried to grab the fish he missed but found the shell. He opened it and found that it contained the precious pearl. He realised its worth and ran home happy. The fish felt sad at the loss of his pearl. Suddenly he was engulfed by a warm sensation and he heard a voice telling him that because of his great kindness to the man he would be transformed into a creature that will always be loved and special to the world. The fish found himself changing. He turned into a dragon and was able to fly away into the heavens. The boy and the pearl One day a village boy finds a large and brilliant pearl while he is out looking for food. He takes it home to his mother and they hide it in a jar of rice so the neighbours won't be jealous. Next day the jar of rice is full. So they put the pearl beside to another jar and the following day that jar's full too. They decided to share the rice with their neighbours but kept the secret of the pearl to themselves. However, the secret got out and the villagers plotted to steal the pearl. During the raid, the boy accidentally swallowed the pearl and its magic turned him into a huge dragon. This is why you will see Chinese dragons depicted with a flaming pearl in front of them. The dragon was once the boy and he is protecting the precious pearl. Anyway.. hope that helps for now.. I'm sleepy, and going to bed.. more tomorrow..

Okay.. so I found some better information.. from a different website.. enjoi! The Difference between Dragons Chinese dragons have five toes. The Chinese believe that all eastern dragons originated from China. They believed that when the dragons flew away, they began to lose toes. The farther and farther the dragons flew, the more toes they lost. So, Korean dragons have four toes, and Japanese dragons have three. Japanese dragons have three toes. The Japanese believe that all eastern dragons originated from Japan. They also believed that when the dragons began to leave Japan, they gain toes. The farther the dragons went, the more toes they gained. This is why the other dragons have more toes. The breath of Japanese dragons turned into clouds, which could produce rain or fire. Due to a measure upon their heads, they could ascend to Heaven when they chose. Korean dragons have four toes. The Koreans believe that all eastern dragons originated from Korea. When the dragons leave Korea and go toward China, they gain toes. When the dragons leave Korea and go toward Japan, they lose toes. Now.. that's very similar to the toe thing I listed last night.. but a little more detailed.. Chinese believe that the dragons have several different "growth" or "life" stages. At birth to around five hundred years (or so) of the dragon's life, they are a "water snake". They are not dragons in the sense that we think them to be. From five hundred (or so) to around one thousand (or so) they become Chiao, or scaled creatures. Chiao are also referred to as Chiao-Lung or Kiao. They are said to begin as a fish, and, at a considerably old age, turn into a dragon. They are scaled dragons. After the Chiao stage, from about one thousand years to one thousand five hundred years old, the dragon grows rapidly. This is when the dragon becomes a Lung dragon. This takes place over the five hundred year period. Lung are also called Li-Lung or Chih-Lung. Unlike some dragons, they are hornless and symbolize the scholar. These dragons can gain horns, but only after about five hundred years. When the dragon is between the ages of one thousand five hundred and two thousand, he or she will become a Horned Dragon. They will gain horns and thus look much wiser in the process. After the dragon is two thousand years old, they become a Ying-Lung. They are winged dragons that are also scale-less. They gain wings only after they've been around for about one thousand years, and they never have scales. I'm not sure that part's as clear as I'd like it to be, but, once more, elaborating more on last night.. Fire - beeswax (lights the candle) Earth - wang plant Water - silk (flow of silk) Wood - lien tree Metal - iron (made of man) All - silk died in five colors, meaning all the elements Those're the things that the dragons feared.. so if you're getting a dragon tattoo.. don't get it tattooed with those things.. though, what a wang plant is, still escapes the world.. Here's a little on the koi thing.. with more to follow, hopefully.. Most of the Eastern dragons could also shape shift. They could take the form of different creatures, such as beasts or man. Whensoever they did this, they were always the most beautiful and kind of all the species. In turn, other animals, including humans, could become dragons. Mainly through magic, people could turn into one of these amazing beasts. One story is of a man studying the magics to change into a dragon. Another has it that a boy swallowed a dragon pearl and transformed into one. There is also the Dragon's Gate, where fish can take the challenge to become a dragon. They must swim against torrents of water and clear a huge leap, and if they complete this they can become a dragon themselves. This gate is located in the Yellow River at the border between the Shensi and Shansi providences. The transformation from fish to dragon is said to be instantaneous. In addition, the dragons are said to rise from this gate in to the skies in the spring and descend into the waters in autumn. And here's some info on colors: Black dragons are children of a thousand-year-old dragon that is black-gold. They are symbols of the North. They caused storms by battling in the air. Blue dragons are children of blue-gold dragons that are eight hundred years old. They are purest blue colors, and they are the sign of the coming spring. They are they are the symbol of the East. Yellow dragons are born from yellow-gold dragons who are one thousand years or older. They hold no symbol. They are secluded and wander alone. They appear at "the perfect moment" and at all other times remain hidden. Yellows are also the most revered of the dragons. Red dragons descend from a red-gold dragon who is about one thousand years of age. They are the symbol for the West, and are much like black dragons. They can cause storms in the skies when they fight. White dragons come from white-gold dragons of a thousand years of age. They symbolize the South. White is the Chinese color of mourning, and these dragons are a sign of death (which the Chinese did NOT deem evil) Reference for all the above info: http://www.blackdrago.com/easterndragons.htm#kinds More to come later.. I'll try to break down the posts for you guys

Umm...yeah....what she said.. Amber, you are a very kind individual for taking the time out to 1) look this all up and 2) post it for some random person.

Thanks theval.. it's not like I had/have anything better to do, like, oh, I dunno, sleeping.. but yeah.. I don't have to be at work until 5 tomorrow.. so I can basically.. do whatever for a few more hours.. I'm just taking a break.. 'cause all that shit came off too many different webpages..

This stuff from the second site much more closely matches what my knowledge base has been... I like this site better. Not that I'm much of an expert. That story about the Koi is almost completely accurate as well, with a few small tweaks. That's some great service you just provided!!!!

Yeah.. now cough up.. lol.. just kidding.. I like to learn about mythology.. so yeah.. well worth it..

The Professor just HAS to put his 2 cents in, doesn't he?

AAAAAHHHHH!!!! You just scared me again!!!!! (lol)

KOI NOBORI is based on the Chinese legend of the koi (carp) which succeeded in getting to the top of the fall named Ryumon, and become a Ryu (Chinese Dragon) going up to the sky. In mythology, koi are a symbol of strength, beauty, perseverence, luck and prosperity and also signify a balanced and tranquil mind. KOI NOBORI is a wishing symbol for boy's strengths against all possible hardships they would face. Here's a little bit more.. based more on Japanese mythology, than Chinese..

wow, that is SO nice of you to get that information. I'm glad I get to read it as well.

Like I said, I enjoy doing it.. so it's not really a problem.. and I'm always glad to help.. because you know, with my job I've forgotten how to be mean.. And as far as looking for a site with good traditional artwork, find a site that has a lot of kimono on it..

http://www.irezumi.us/eg/index.html

Nice tattoos.. not a fan of the site.. Here're some traditional designs: http://www.kimkatz.com/ http://www.ichiroya.com/item/list.php?pg=0&ct=003 And because you're looking at kimono.. you get an idea of designs that're acceptable together.. especially because you're looking for something a lot more traditional, it's a good idea to understand the basic principles of Japanese/Chinese design.. for example, there are some flowers and animals you don't include together in a design.. for example, you wouldn't include cherry blossoms with a snow hare..