seminars

these one on one seminars for a grand make me want to puke....none of us tattooers are hurtin, how money hungary can dudes get...eesh.....

Its ironic hearing someone who charges over a hundred an hour talk about other people being greedy. My wife makes $15 an hour teaching infants as one of the top infant teachers in america. Ironic, one of the most important jobs, taking care of the most valuable resource make less that a quarter what a decent tattoo artist makes. Fact is, those seminars are an opportunity to pick an experts brain and use that knowledge to make a lot more money (doing better work). I have charged a grand for people to pick my brain (years ago during my freelance computer days) and have paid more to receive expert advice that has shaped how TattooNOW and Off the Map are today. Sorry you think its greedy, I think its a wise investment in an artists education.

Its funny that a man would be attacked on this forum for making a valid point. Please tell me how watching any one of these dudes tattoo for a few hours is worth $1000. Do these few artists deserve that amount of money plus the what they're making on the tattoo? And whats the real benefit? To learn how to do really detailed big faces? Ya know Gabe, you're right. Your wife is surely deserving of more money for what she does but the real reward of her job is the impact she has on a young, developing life. These guys are just digging up ways to line there pockets and you're aiding in that. Maybe we should put more focus on what your wife is doing for the better good of ALL and less on the development of finances for those that line your pockets.

What seminars are these? Someone like Nick Baxter & Joe Capobianco charge like 150$ per seminar.

I think they're referring to Nikko. He did or still doing a full day $1000 one on one seminar.

I think they're referring to Nikko. He did or still doing a full day $1000 one on one seminar.

The topic is about the one on one whole day seminars that Mike Devries and Nikko are doing. While a normal seminar that has 10-30 artists and costs $150-$250 per student, these cost $1,000 for one on one attention and education for the whole day. Sometimes the group seminars would have a person get tattooed during the seminar, but only a few folks would do that. Tom Renshaw is one I remember, I believe the seminar was over $500 each. You can see Mike Devries's description for his one day seminar on his home page at MDTattoos.com. Nikkos is on his myspace and I reposted at Off the Map Tattoo cause I figuered their may be an artist or two who would want the opportunity. I took the liberty of reposting the opportunity with Nikko, we had not discussed doing this but I figure if/when we have an artist interested then we would get ahold of Nikko to discuss details. To reply, I dont feel my "attack" was out of line, calling Nikko and Mike Devries greedy and saying their actions make you want to puke are pretty strong words. Especially when I dont feel their actions are greedy at all, but perfectly fair and indeed their actions do raise the bar for tattooing. If you cant make more than a thousand dollars from the improvement you get from picking their brains for a day, then, well, you should do it. There are other ways to learn, but those guys have a lot to share and getting their expert attention for a day is very valuable. How much do you think an experts time is worth for one day? If you want to know whether these one on one seminars are worth a grand, I would ask one of the artists who has done one and or check out their work before and after before calling the artists greedy. Have either of you asked any artists who have taken their seminar their thoughts? Did they feel ripped off and taken advantage of? If this is true then they are not something I would like to support. I have heard from one artist who was very happy and his work has had a marked improvement. I understand you might not think its worth your money to learn how they tattoo big detailed faces, but I dont get why your panties are in a bundle about other artists who see the benefit of getting expert advice would. Do you think its greedy charging $150 per student for a group seminar? I mean, if you do the math these artists make less than they would in a group setting with 25 people... And why shouldnt the client pay for their tattoo. I dunno the exact details, but the artists doing the teaching is doing twice the work, two separate skills being worked real hard... Of course I cant speak for the artists and their personal motivations, but I can speak as someone who has worked in a few different industries. I have charged for private seminars and group ones, and gotten paid for the work I used as examples during the day. Many experts charge a hefty price to pick their brains, becuse that knowledge is then used to generate a lot more business. Expecting something for nothing is what I call greedy. You dont think its worth it, no problems. But its not unfair or greedy... I hate when money excludes people from knowledge, of course, if you two are with me I am down for promoting a Tattoo Scholarship fund to help poor tattoo artists afford learning... We can get all the big wig tattoo artists (well, everyone we can!) to pitch in a little dough and pay for poor but deserving tattoo artists to get into seminars. We dont need to do the one day ones though, but we could help more artists get into the $150-$250 range ones cause thats what Im assuming you guys think is fair. Coupla logos, quickie website, advertising, paypal account... as for the pay rate that early childhood educators get and where the benifit is, we can talk about this for hours. Sure, she drastically improves the quality of the lives of children and their parents, but the "real" benefit is from the money we dont spend sending her students to jail when they grow up, and indeed the revenues and responsible productivity her kids will (hopefully) engage in. In short, the society benefits (10% a year) and early childhood educators get the shit end of the pay stick compared to even crappy tattoo artists... Luckily we work in a field where drawing pretty pictures on people brings in some good money if you work hard and are talented. You bet, even though my wife loves improving the lives of her students, when my wife can make a thousand dollars a day showing people how she teaches, you better believe she'd take it. I do wholeheartedly agree we should spend more time focused on educating our youth, so they can grow up to do good fair business! :-)

jesus, if that wasnt long winded enough, one last thing... rest assured handsome, my hope is that these businesses will turn a good profit in the future, and help fuel my grass roots marketing efforts to undermine the current power structure in favor of one whos core value is educating its population and creating opportunity for it. I am a businessmen, I guess, and its the best way to create educated clients with good ideas that have money to spend... ha.

also gabe youve never been tattooed by me so ho would you reallyknow.....fact is of any one i dont give a shit about the money...some times ill just do it for fun....maybe ill work for hours and not make more than 30 an hour my cut...i think its stupid to charge money for tattoos but i have to stay competitive and i have to make money for the business to work in the biz...the greatest thing in life is to be able to work artistically in a pool of peers and trade knowledge for better use.. ...any one can come sit right by my side and we can share for free......maybe ill tattoo ya if i got time. thats all i mean about this subject. granted...some people have mouths to feed....i dont.

Could one of the reason why they charge what they do because of the popularity and all the things that comes with it? Because naturally clients are the ones that make them so "hot" and the more publicity you have, the more costly stuff can become. You get called to more and more conventions, maybe art projects, books, dvd's, new machines, more people all the time so maybe shop needs expansion, maybe a new artist for the shop also, family getting bigger and diapers cost money and naturally the more you work the more you stress out. Fuck! If I would get money for writing crap I do I would take it, because I like to live too and do stuff like everyone else. And all the other crap I don't even know what artists do on top of these...

Points made and points taken. I'll go spend a few in the time out corner now.

Oh, and, twice the work? Really? You should have seen me walkin and chewin gum yesterday. I'll only be charging $500 for that seminar. Get at me for info

I guess you have never taught a class or seminar, its quite a bit of work. And if it was easy, it probably wasnt very good... I dunno fellahs, call me crazy but I imagine there are a lot more artists trying to get a piece of Nikko and Mike Devries than you guys. Maybe after you guys kick your shit up a bit and earn the reputation they have and you have two dozen artists a day trying to get into your head you might find you have to separate the hacks from the serious artists who will truly benefit from your time and energy. I used to give shit away but found out that people who get shit for free rarely value it.

Don't know what to say, but I emailed you Gabe, Off the Map & Nikko about how to set up an appointment, but nobody got back to me... Why you're too Big to get back to a client???

Jason,you do great work and you don't have to be famous to be proud of that.Handsome does great work to but has been deleted from this site for reasons unknown.Nikko and MD are both great guys and do great work.I have spent time around both of them.I think the best thing to do is get tattooed by them and ask questions along the way.I did.Not saying its not worth it if you wanna tattoo just like them.There are just so many Tattoo Like Me Seminars that it is ridiculous.Some artists are happy to share their knowledge and some are truly greedy and not worth a penny.Famous or not.Bottom line!!!!!

filiptat, I try to email everyone back, I really do. But I guess we are too "big" to get back to *everyone*. That said, I checked my email and the system log and couldnt find any emails sent to me or Nikko through the system witht he email listed on your last post... Did you use a different email? Maybe it hit my spam filter? Phone calls are *always* the best way. Its frustrating that people get frustrated after sending an email that we may or may not have gotten (thanks computers and spam filters and zillions of emails). Its easy to reach us at (413) 527-6574, its is the studio line and Im there from 12ish to 5ish and then after 8ish. Theres no question Jason and Handsome are good tattooers, but they are not in the same class as Nikko or Mike Devries, in my opinion. The best thing to do is to get tattooed and ask questions, not everyone has that opportunity. Persoanlly, I dont think there are enough "tattoo like me" seminars, the more education this industry has available to it the higher the bar is raised. Im suprised that again and again, artists who HAVE (or should have) gotten plenty of free tips from these artists would call them out as greedy. Again, its great to know that jason, you, and handsome have the time to let strangers sit in on your tattoos and ask questions for 8 hours, it amazes me you dont realize how many people are trying to get a piece of these guys, and call them greedy when they charge to dispense their expertise. But, this is an immature industry and these are whats called growing pains. I dunno, it really makes no difference to me, everyones work speaks for itself, wanna tattoo like Jason Maybruck, Handsome, or Jamie Cross, go show up for the day and have fun. Want it from one of the two top color realism tattoo artists? Either hang over their shoulder at a convention and ask questions with the dozen others trying the same, be patient and wait a year or two to get tattooed, go to one of their group seminars, buy one of their books, or buy a day of their focused one on one time... All valid fair methods of learning that have varying costs and benefits. Lastly, to clarify, are all you guys really calling out these guys as greedy without asking any artists who did it if it was worth it? What if every artists who took it said it was well worth it and way more informative than any other seminar they took?

Also, I did un-delete handsome, no idea why or how that happened, very sorry. I do also find it ironic that you feel like there are "too many tattoo seminars" and yet still want to come to the convention Im hosting which is all about, well, more tattoo seminars. good to know for next year.

i kind of wish i had worded my initial post a bit more eliquently now. i hope no body is all pissed at each other.....lets enjoy the sunny ass day........indoors.ha

Gabe - I used my other email ([email removed])... Sorry for using the "Too Big", I'm just so pumped to get tattooed by Nikko. I'm a young tattoo artist, with a fine art background (renaissance). I just want to know what does Nikko or You want from me to get an appointment (photos, downpayment, etc.)... Also, need to know how much, as soon as you got everything you need from me.

Wow! This is obviously becoming a tender issue. Gabe, I've been told stories of when knowledge was shared on merit, not wallet size. When tattooing was a skill to be learned from one tradesmen to the next. Not bought, but earned. Before tattooing became an "industry" to be sold. There is no question both Mike D and Nikko are extremely talented. You know, I sat with Mike for a day. I guess I just dont get how having the most money is the best way "weed out" who's more deserving. Maybe I'm just a few years too late for the way I feel this "industry" should have be. Thanks for putting me back on. I'll be posting pictures soon. My apologies if I've been insulting to anyone. Tony Turrini Nitemae Tattoo

[email removed] I say something that bad to deserve that.Read the post again.I said some are worth it and some are not.And I can't wait to tattoo at YOUR show.TATTOO and be around all these awesome artists and now you are gonna axe me for next year.Remember that convention was my dream and you were going to help me?Wow,i will never leave a post again if that is what I get.I am truly sorry.And thank you for putting Handsome back up as I am very proud of what his work has become.He does not put it out there and I was only trying to help.And if I could afford to sit with MD and or Nikko all day I would because I believe those two are genuine.All I said was some are not.

I just punched myself in the face.I hope that helps causenow I gotta do a tattoo.

class of tattooer???????compared to who?..ill take that as a comliment. now im really done with this one

Jason: It is true that money should never be a goal, but it is indeed a fuel. I also like to be around peers and learn and share, and by charging money and putting that fuel into the business is what allows us to do so. When Devries and Nikko get paid a grand to devote a day to teaching an artist what they know, not only does that thousand bucks stay inside the tattoo community instead of being spent on, say, vacation, or strip clubs, or drugs, or anything. Then the artist who benifits from these intense seminars produces better work which attracts more clients generating more business for the tattoo industry, while doing what we all like, creating better tattoos. I dont think Devries or Nikko charge $20 a question, indeed there ARE cheaper alternatives to getting into their brains. Well, cheaper for the artist, we already went over how these artists make less money with a one on one seminar than a group one. You dont need to be more eloquent, but maybe less quick to judge someone as greedy or in it for the money. You may have the time to spend 8 hours devoting your time to teaching anyone, but Nikko and Devries *are* in a different class, their talent and hard work has put them at the very tippity top of desirable artists. FilipTat, I didnt find any email with the other address either. The phone is your friend if you are going to try to get in touch with a world famous artist. Emails get lost and suck. Your best bet to get a spot is to come out and chat with him while he is here, get on my radar, and then we can possibly get you a spot his next visit. Its very difficult and the thing you need more than money is patience. Handsome, calling Nikko and Mike Devries greedy bastards is bound to ruffle feathers. I cant speak for their personal motivations, but I do know that charging to devote your time to teaching someone one on one is very tiring and valuable, I find it *very* immature to call them out publicly as greedy, especially if you havent done your homework about it. As far as the open sharing of info, I think your hallucinating, the whole tattoo industry is experiencing this growth *because* its not as closed as it used to be. Used to get your thumbs done broke if you tried to learn and the artists around didnt like it. And to pretend that because someone charges for a one day one on one seminar doesnt mean either artist exclude anyone, they both have group seminars that are cheaper (and where they make more money). You still need to earn it, and if you want to sit and pick the brain of the best, you need to earn a thousand bucks, and be somewhat accomplished. That is, I dont want someone picking my brain for a day unless I know they will pay attention and put my brain dump to good use. Sure, I can pick apart their portfolio, meet them in person and get to judge if they are cool and forward thinking or positive, or I can charge a premium for my dedicated time. If someone isnt going to be sure they will make more than grand off my knowledge, then they shouldnt be wasting my time, I could be teaching someone else who will put my energies to good use. I dont know if you have insulted anyone, but if I were Mike Devries or Nikko and someone called me greedy, well, they wouldnt get shit from me in the future I tell ya. Jamie: the [email removed] email is one I have had for a while, I didnt pick it out just for you. Most of my posts have that tag. I dont think my responce was too out of line, and I tried to be celar I was talking about the three of ya, not singling you out. And I guess when you said some are greedy I was assuming you were talking about Nikko and Devries who were brought up. Now, I may be jumpy anyways, havnt had my meds in days, but I thought YOUR dream was to have a big tattoo convention in springfield or worcester that had a lot of booths and lots of metal bands playing, I wasnt aware your dream was to have a very small quiet tattoo convention in the middle of the woods with a keen focus on education and "tattoo like me seminars". Not for nothing, but the thoughts of running a convention started back in the darkside days with ohara... Im still down to helping you with your dream if you ever get your shit together enough to do it. though, if you feel like Im macking your idea for a convention, I guess things might be a tad tense. thanks for clarifying about who you think is greedy and not, theres no question that some people are greedy, if I were people I would really do my homework before calling out respected artists on a public forum... Oh, and dont punch yourself too much, take care of those ribs you derby maniac! you know, I am a wacked out leftie liberal, but that doesnt mean I think everything in life should be free or shared with everyone and that we shouldnt have to pay for anything and that everyone should be treated the same. While everyone should be treated with respect and given ample education and opportunity, those who work hard and smart and feed their talent will rise to the top and should be paid more money. that is, Im all down for helping the poor pick the brain of these guys, but why should some asshole who does have money and will make more with their help get into their heads for free? fuck that, people who want a piece of the best should work hard to afford it, or simply take one of the cheaper alternatives so they can reach the level where they can afford it. And we can all pool a bit of dough to help the poor if you want, as I said Im way down for promoting a scholarship fund...

I am truly sorry Gabe.Honestly,I was a little jealous that you did'nt ask me to help out with the convention knowing how excited I was to have one with you and Pulse backing me up.If Springfield would not have shot me down,this would be year two.Then we found out someone in Worcester was having one already so I backed down.But I am glad you are having one,and with your resources I hope it is the best one ever.I can't wait.Hopefully I am still on the list of participating artists and a member of Tattoonow.There is no tension,only a little jealousy that I will get over.peace,"Rollverine"

Jamie, feel free to call or stop up for a chat, we can probably take most of this offline. I will add that before we chatted about blizzard of ink, I had already been working with one convention for a while, had thoughts and declined partnering with other conventions, had been asked to host a convention many times, and was finding out which convention I loved the most. I am happy to help everyone with their dreams, but I have my own and have been hell bent on this path for a while now (and the convention is not the end, its the beginning!). We are happy to have anyone and everyones support, due to whats at stake I had/have to be extremely deliberate whom I choose as a partner/trusted advisor. I will be happy to help you with all your endeavors, if I could run the gathering every other year and help with a massive mega one thats under someone elses direction the off year, I would be very happy.

hey everyone...here is the deal.....there is a huge difference between a convention seminar and a one on one. i have taken both mikes and nikkos. would i pay them for a second time to sit with them......in a heart beat...they are some of the most stand up non-superficial people i have ever met in this industry...man look at what they accomplished in such a short period of time....i have been tattooin professionally for 2 and 1/2 years and i can imagine being where i am with out the collective help of people like nikko, mike, bob tyrell, jon clue, and various other that have sat with me and opened their personal gift to me....u have to realize when this guy shares what he does well it opens u to build upon the gift u already have.....knowledge is power in this world and who should put a price on it.....a grand is nothing in comparison to what i learned and now apply to each tattoo....man after learning i did work that has brought me thousands of dollars back already....so to Nikko, Mike...thanks for ur humbleness and sharing ur gift. i feel privilaged to have taken ur seminars and learned so much.....if u ewant to see the difference...look at the recent work on here under my name and see the difference in the last couple months......thanks for the forum and the chance to reply to this gabe....doug billion

Hey, I want to add (ha, Im in a chatty mood lately) that I am all about trading out value for peoples brains. Fact is sharing has to go both ways, and you have to give out what you want to get back. If you are generous to those in need, those above you will notice and in turn help you. I have done $10,000 websites for people I believed in but knew they didnt have the money. In my past, I have done $10,000 websites for people because I was a nice guy and they strait up didnt have the money. I realized that I cant stay in business giving shit to everyone, you need to be very very particular. Most people dont deserve shit for free. They waste it. If there are artists out there who want to take Joe Capobianco, Nick Baxter, or Mike Devries seminar at Hell City and are really talented but just bust up because of their situation, send me an email and we will work out the fee. I can probably swing 1-3 peoples admission (maybe one for each) if you are hustling your ass off and spending your last penny getting there.

And I'll cover another

Oh yeah, a big thumbs up to John Montgomery for his part in Hell City.

I need to clarify that thesedays the people I believe in and do a website for, I do collect on the back end. Generally without interest. I dont give it to anyone anymore, thats the waste.

I need to ad that I am also one of those guys that Gabe has given a lot to. He asked me if I wanted to start doing interviews with artists with out even seeing interviews that I had done (at that time, there werent any). I guess he just "saw something in me". Because of him, I have had many many contacts and I can allways show artists when contacting them that I have done stuff for a proper tattoo site, so it is like a portfolio. With out Gabe, my life wouldnt be what it is now. He gave me a reason to carry on in life. Because of him my existence started to mean something. And I am eternally grateful to him because of that.

awwwww...so cute

On a serious note though I looked at Nikko and Mike D's portfolios online and they are phenomenal (i cant' spell) artists. I would have never guessed that they are relatively "new" to tattooing and think that a grand to pick their brains is more than worth it. i agree with gabe. Actually Gabe or anyone else that could maybe help...where does Xed Lehead have a studio? checked out his work too and its amazing.

Xed tattoos in Into You Tattoo in London www.into-you.co.uk

Thank you very much sir.

Damn dudes....i just checked out that site and everyones work there is awesome. Thanks again Pyrrhus. Anyone else that can help me out here....i know each individual artist has his/ her own style...that being said it seems like Xed and Dan Dimattia have a SIMILAR style...not the same but similar....i'm trying my best to watch how i say this...because i genuinly (again my spelling sucks) dont want to offend anyone. Does anyone know of an artist on the same level as those two who has a similar style with blackwork in the NY, NJ, eastern PA, or DE area? I looked at Thomas Hoopers work from New york adorned but thats the closest i've come to finding someone. Toms work is good but it doesn't have that same appeal to me that Xed and Dan's does. Any help would be much appreciated.

My first pick would have been Thomas. Allthou if you are looking for that tribalistic/buddhist/spiritual/absract vibe, these artists come to mind but they are in different parts of USA. Most likely you would have to travel to London to get the style you like. All I can recommended are these shops And some of them are maybe's/long shots http://senaspace.com www.savedtattoo.com http://gabrielcecetattoos.com www.halobodyart.com www.gurutattoo.com (Rory)

For the record, I agree with Gabe 110%. I could pages on this, but enough said. Janer